Question of the Month

March 2004

What issues do you anticipate will arise in the classroom as UC- and CSU-eligible students are redirected to community colleges?

Please e-mail responses to Communications Director Keri Goulart, kgoulart@faccc.org, by March 31. (use the subject "March Question"). Your response (along with your name, e-mail address and college) will be published here at www.faccc.org and may be published in other FACCC publications.

RESPONSES:

Wed 3/31/2004 11:54 AM, sylwesterl@yosemite.cc.ca.us (Laurie Sylwester)

I welcome the idea of UC students in my Columbia College classroom. We have so many quality professors, perhaps it will open eyes as students discover what a reasonable learning environment we provide. Operating on a potentially false assumption, the infusion of such students may raise the bar for other students, in a positive way. From the other direction, our Community College students are likely to open the eyes of the newly relocated cadre of students.
As a fiscal conservative, I have always felt that it is perhaps too expensive to teach fundamental classes at the University level. Clearly Community Colleges give a great bang for the buck, and that includes content. This could be a good move for the higher education system in California. With all of that said, I find it beyond objectionable that fees would be waived for the incoming displaced students. They need to pay the same fees as all of our other students.

Mon 3/29/2004 11:12 PM, susan4@jps.net (Susan Schacher)

Re FACCC's invitation to comment about the elimination of 10% of UC & CSU slots, sending folks to the CCs:

I am concerned about a reduction in basic skills classes and programs. In recent years, community college have improved educational opportunities for young and older adults underprepared for college level work. These basic skills programs have enabled people to move on to academic and vocational programs at the community colleges, to better-paying jobs, and to further education. If university-prepared students are sent to the community college, will less-prepared folks will be pushed out the bottom of California's higher education system?

Mon 3/29/2004 9:34 AM, Reisnec@arc.losrios.edu (Carolyn Reisner)

The redirection of students from the UC and CSU systems will impact community colleges the following ways:
1. Most students will find out they are 'redirected' in late April or even later. Many, if not most community college have deadlines for priority registration. The deadline for my district is April 1st. Our English and Math courses generally fill during priority 1 registration. This will lead to frustration for the redirected students.

2. While money is being slotted for the UC's to offer 'counseling' for the redirected students - nothing is being said about adding monies for community college counseling. It will be the community college counselors who will assist these students in choosing the appropriate courses at the community college campus. Most community colleges already have ratios of over 1,000 students for every counselor.

3. Waiving the community college fees for this group of students is unfair to the rest of our student population. Funds for waiving the fees are better spent in offering more financial aid to those students truly in need.

Sat 3/27/2004 4:05 PM, mfield@glendale.cc.ca.us (Mona Field)

As a teacher, and speaking very selfishly, I hope to get some "redirects" in my classroom because they are more than likely going to be more college-prepared and more motivated than my average student. On the other hand, as an advocate for social justice and equality, I am fearful for our "traditional" students, because with cutbacks in course offerings, we all know that more savvy students who know how to fill out forms and assert themselves will figure out how to get their classes, and our first-generation college-attendees and other less prepared students may be denied access. We simply must continue the fight for full access in keeping with the promise of the Master Plan.

Sat 3/27/2004 2:20 PM, kschmeidler@ivc.cc.ca.us (K.T. Schmeidler)

The quality of student pool will rise; I don't anticipate returning to the standards I held even 10 years ago, but maybe it will help a little.

It is very important that people stop using the tone of voice & phrasing to imply that our UC & CSU students will suffer from this move. We offer very strong equivalence at the CC for a lot less $$.

Sat 3/27/2004 8:10 AM, dablood@pacbell.net (David Blood)

While this idea sounds great, I suspect it will cause an expensive headache for admissions. We will have to keep track of which students pay and which don't. Why not just keep fees at their present low level. The students will save money paying community college fees instead of State or UC tuition. Hopefully no one is suggesting that students receive an inferior undergraduate education at a community college and so deserve a reward for being forced to attend one.

Sat 3/27/2004 7:29 AM, eecox@awwwsome.com (E Estella Cox)

Open enrollment is the benchmark of CCCs and should remain so. Keeping class sizes to 15 rather than 20 minimum would increase enrollment markedly.

Tue 3/23/2004 5:52 PM, ana_maria_de_barling@wvmccd.cc.ca.us (Ana Maria de Barling)

Are the community colleges prepared to take the influx of students? How will the community colleges pay for such student population increses? Will the community colleges have to change curriculum standards?

Tue 3/23/2004 11:26 AM, dyoung@Cerritos.edu (Dave Young)

The problem, if you can call it one, probably will mean that overall performance will go up.

The greater issue is that these students are going to be at the end of a very long line to get into classes that are already full.

Just because some politician somewhere realizes that we can't afford to put everybody who wants to go to college into a state funded four year, doesn't mean that we'll be any more able to accommodate the overflow at the two year level.

My college is over cap now. We have reduced the number of sections we offer by 25%. We have an open access architecture. We are exploring creating even more "developmental" classes for the large numbers of significantly under prepared students we already have.

Where are we supposed to put the proposed CSU and UC "redirected" students?

Tue 3/23/2004 10:35 AM, FRISCH_DENNIS@smc.edu (Dennis Frisch)

Issue 1: Two classes or groups of students in the classroom...one group are the redirect CSU/UC students who pay nothing for the comunity college classes; the other group are the "regular" cc students who pay fees. I would anticipate some tension there.

Issue 2: Since the redirect students have a guaranteed place at a UC or CSU, what motivates them to do the work in the course for the highest possible grade. Unless there are some minimum grade requirements for the guaranteed place, this would become an issue with other students who are working hard and in good faith to complete work.

Issue 3: The redirect students will displace other students because there will not be enough sections to accomodate the redirect and regular students.

Tue 3/23/2004 7:31 AM, albertjar@yahoo.com (James Russell)

I see basic skill levels as being different inside the classroom. The quality of students and skills far apart with present problems in teaching, curriculum may have to be altered is order to accommodate the mew arrivals.

Mon 3/22/2004 10:58 PM, kkcomp1@ix.netcom.com (Kerry Compton)

As a current VP of Student Services who is still a member of FACCC, I am concerned that we will have even more descrepancies in our classrooms than we already have, especially if the CSU and UC students are funded and our traditional constituency is not funded and, of course, often are not as prepared as the other students. That's what community colleges do, help students get prepared. Our traditional community college students will suffer.

Mon 3/22/2004 10:03 PM, rby2oz@impulse.net (Robert Yoshioka)

Well, for starters, the "snootiness factor" will go up exponentially. Our tried and true faculty will have to take measures not to bend over backwards to "service" the re-directed from CSU and UC campuses around the
state.

I think that these "redirects" are in for an eye-opening experience, as they will have to compete with students with "street smarts" and "more extensive life-experiences," than they would be accustomed to find in classes being taught in the other segments!

Will they demand higher grades? Will there be grade inflation? Time will tell. This will be an interesting experiment in "trickle down students!"

Mon 3/22/2004 10:12 PM, robinancyr@yahoo.com, (Nancy Redding)

As a part-time Learning Disability Specialist at De Anza College, I see a myriad of problems arising from the UC and CSU students arriving on Community College Campuses. Among them are:

1. How are our other community college students going to feel about these students NOT paying tuition? This will polarize the students.
2. The academic level of these students (headed for UC or CSU campuses) will be intimidating to many students who are working very hard to keep up in the Community College environment. I feel many of them
will drop out because of this intimidation factor.
3. Will the more efficient instructors--those that are more well-liked by the students--be chosen (or choose) to instruct those more motivated students?
4. How will the campuses address the need for more classroom space. I would venture to say that at
De Anza College there is not many classrooms available during the day. I can't imagine how they will add more sections for the classes.
5. Many students are at community college to receive certificate or other lesser degrees. They feel that they belong and are welcomed by the community college system. Will there be room for these students with the proposed influx of students already admitted to UC or CSU campuses? There are many other issues. Thank you for your time with these.

Mon 3/22/2004 6:17 PM, storerchris@fhda.edu (Chris Storer)

There is every reason to expect that the influx of better prepared students into the basic CCC general ed and transfer courses will improve the quality of the classes, the work of the weaker students, and the overall preparation and engagement of CCC transfer students as they move on to UC and CSU. Assuming the CCCs are given adequate Growth and COLA augmentations to avoid displacing any of our less well prepared students, and to adjust to the sudden growth, this can only be good for students and the state.

I think it would actually be best if the entire lower division education program in the state were taken over by the CCCs. This would increase the percentage of better prepared students in all transfer classes which, in my experience, would improve the learning of all students. However, it would probably require adding dormitories to some CCs.

Also, if we received all the CSU and UC lower division students, along with their funding at the $12,000 to $25,000 per FTE now available (boosting our overall funding per FTES to something approaching the "real cost of education" figure), the CCCs would then be able to reduce their reliance on PT faculty and begin improving programs and instruction, resulting in lower attrition.

Mon 3/22/2004 5:07 PM, mrose@msjc.edu (Mike Rose)

I think we need to be cautious regarding a potential corruption of our mission. California's Community Colleges have long been the underdog in higher education's three system competition for both financing and academic reputation. Some of our colleagues have aspirations to what they might view as a " better world" of UC or CSU students in the sense that these students are products of a competitive selection process. I worry that some individuals or campuses might cater to or vie for these students, at the expense
of our traditional clientele. I can foresee situations where better informed (or just better organized) UC/CSU students might fill classes well ahead of our traditional folks. I can see circumstances where some of our colleagues might encourage this process, even facilitate it. And given the clear message in some state and local goals that place a premium on transfer as the most important measure of the value of a Community College, there certainly are pressures on us to do exactly that. I hope our commitment to our institutional
vision, that we are available to nearly all, and that we will provide them with the very best vocational or transfer or terminal education possible, prevails. We should be proud of who we are, what we do, and how effective we are. We'll certainly give the UC/CSU students an excellent education. That's what we do. We must, however, maintain our perspective, our balance, and not diminish access,
services, or quality to our traditional students.

Mon 3/22/2004 4:52 PM, blakes.dsj@verizon.net (Sara Blake)

Let me get this straight. At present, we cannot meet the needs of our current student population due to program cuts. Now let's add a lot more students to compete for these puny resources. What issues might arise? A couple come to mind. First, with no money to fund any more classes, how are we going to accomodate more students? Second, whose needs become privileged--the new "transfer" students or the under-prepared students who need to catch up with them? I'm sure it would be too much to ask of the state that the arrival of these new students coincide with an influx of money to hire the teachers and build the facilities to serve them.

Mon 3/22/2004 4:24 PM, mackinm@CRC.losrios.edu (Marlo McClurg-Mackinnon)

My greatest concerns about the redirected students are:
1. With limited space, it seems probable that they will bounce others from their seats
2. Will this foster a redirection of the community college mission dedicated to the open-door policy to meet the needs OF ALL our community members, regardless of age and background?
3. Will the students come with disgruntled attitudes when they didn't choose, but were forced? Will that create hostility between "us" and "them" forces?
4. Will new members of our communities, particularly immigrants given equal access and opportunity or "redirected" to adult education? Will we be returning to, "Why can't THEY go somewhere else?"
5. Will college transfer gain precedence over our professional, academic career programs?
6. Will funding come to meet the needs of MORE when we are already not able to meet the needs?
7. Most important, will this engender the "junior" college concept to resurge over "community" college?
Marlo McClurg-MacKinnon

Mon 3/22/2004 4:06 PM, ncowan@gw5mail.clpccd.cc.ca.us (Nancy Cowan)

I anticipate classes that are full to overflowing. With problems relating to funding community colleges, I suspect that this is going to be a major problem in terms of finding enough faculty to teach some courses (RIFs) and cutting back on the course offerings (to reduce college expenditures).

Mon 3/22/2004 4:01 PM, RKoerner@vcccd.net (Raeann Koerner)

If UC and CSU accepted students are redirected to the community colleges AND have their fees waived, I think there will be animosity toward those students from our community college students who DO have to pay fees. Everyone should have to pay the same fees except those students who qualify for financial assistance.

Also, if additional money is not forthcoming to the community colleges to open more sections of classes, class sections will be larger and it will be more difficult for all of our students to get into the classes they need.

Mon 3/22/2004 3:17 PM, LWidman@elcamino.edu (Lance Widman)

Considering the total number of students that may be redirected (7000+/-), and if that number is spread around among many CC campuses, I do not forsee an enormous impact to any one district or campus. When I mentioned this possibility to my students, they were really upset that the UC and CSU students would be on a free ride while the CC students' fees will have gone up over 100% in two year's time. There may also be some additional demand on student services, but again I think it will be marginal if the numbers noted above are accurate. More importantly, however, is that the CCs become the convenient dumping ground for the Con-man to fill the budget hole next year.

Mon 3/22/2004 2:19 PM, cgreyrav@sbccd.cc.ca.us (Cynthia Greyraven)

Our community colleges have always served some UC- and CSU-eligible students who chose (usually for financial reasons) to start out at a two-year institution. So, I don't anticipate any new pedagogical issues.

A minor concern of mine is that the involuntarily re-directed students may have morale issues about attending a "second class" institution. This prejudiced and inaccurate perception has long been fought by community colleges, and we need to continue to publicize the high quality of instruction offered and point to the success rates of our transfer students.

My major concern is whether or not we'll be provided the resources needed to accommodate an increased student population, regardless of its point of origin. At my college, many programs are already chronically overenrolled and under-funded (for example, lab sciences which require expensive equipment and supplies). I expect pressure to be increased to add more students per class section. I fear that college administrations will trumpet improved retention statistics (due to UC- and CSU-eligible students) while our disadvantaged students drop out at higher rates than ever.

Mon 3/22/2004 2:01 PM, GOLDSTEIN_MARTIN@smc.edu (Martin Goldstein)

In our school, since we send so many kids on to four year schools already, these kids will fit in easily with our normal students. But given that we have to fit them into a college shrunk by 25% this year, it will be daunting at best to service all of them, plus the expected 7000 new students the Admin wants to add to grow back to what we hope was normal size. All this shrinkage and growth is on the backs of Part Timers, of course, losing jobs and security and gaining stress and axiety, but since we're used to it, I doubt it will affect our work with the students. The problem will be finding room for them.

Mon 3/22/2004 11:29 AM, rkucheck@yahoo.com (Riki Kucheck)

As we are already overloaded and turning away students, it will only get worse. Unless we are funded for the increased numbers, a huge portion of students will be unable to get into the classes they need. I currently teach several general education required math courses. This year I had an average of 20 - 30 students petitioning to get into each of my already full classes. If the UC and CSU students are redirected, this number will increase. In essence, we will have the same number of courses offered but more than twice the number of students trying to get in. Obviously, many will fail to get the courses they need. Frustration levels will increase and they will either a) go to another state for their degrees (if they have the money) or b) give up and not get any degree. Let's not forgot that a significant portion of our students are not transferring to a four-year instituion but are on a vocational track and/or retraining. What are they to do when they can't get the classes to finish their certificates? This is not simple redirecting eligible UC- and CSU- students to community colleges but actually redirecting students out of higher education

Mon 3/22/2004 1:07 PM, Jim.Custeau@gcccd.net (Jim Custeau)

As a technical field faculty member (automotive technology), I am worried that these "transfer" students will show up at our door and the state will not supply us with the growth money to support them. I see that, in turn,
reducing the available dollars for the other equally important mission of the community colleges—work force training.

Mon 3/22/2004 12:24 PM, Smith_John@sccollege.edu (John L. Smith)

I see two main issues, closely related. First, will there be space for these students? Will they get registration preference ahead of every other student in the system. Will the spaces for these students at the UC and CSU campuses be saved and added to our transfer positions - for there is serious concern that these students will supplant our current transfer students, leaving no room at the inn, so to speak.

Second, where will the money for these students come from? If the legislature passes anything resembling the governor's budget, we all know that increased fees are a part of our "revenue." to have students entering gratis will either take away from the slots reserved for BOG waiver students or will decrease revenue in general disproportionately to community colleges receiving the bulk of these students. On top of no backfill, it is an unfunded mandate straining our resources.

Mon 3/22/2004 12:00 PM, MTarte@gw5mail.clpccd.cc.ca.us (Mark Tarte)

More potential students vying for the the same number of seats. Students, who rejected by CSU or UC systems maybe believing the CC system is "inferior."

Mon 3/22/2004 11:37 AM, scottk@arc.losrios.edu, (Kim Scott)

*sending the message to students that have no other option other than community colleges that we won't be able address their needs, this population is not as savy as the CSU/UC prepared student, so in this arena our less prepared students may be to intimidated or frustrated to complete the process, or we just may run out of appointment time to see them.
*funding the cost of these students that are redirected.
*staffing resources (both on the instruction as well as student services side of the house), student services (i.e. counselors) have been told that the redirected students are guaranteed meetings with counselors.

Mon 3/22/2004 11:31 AM, SheppaM@scc.losrios.edu (Marian Sheppard)

UC and CSU-eligible students are more prepared to self-advocate. They will probably use counseling services much more than our current students to be sure they are on track. Unfortunately, we do not have enough counseling services for our current students (current caseload at SCC: 900+ to 1; current average counseling caseload in California: 1900 to 1). The students who need counseling the most will be underserved.

Another scenario: some UC/CSU-bound students do not know what a wealth of preparation we have at community college. They may decide to go to a private university instead. This may put an extra financial burden on the state-wide financial aid system, since private colleges cost at least twice that of a public university.

Mon 3/22/2004 11:30 AM, SmithD@scc.losrios.edu (Dennis Smith)

The assumption is that these students will be in the transfer level courses. I'm also assuming that our lower division courses are of equal content and quality as those at CSU and UC. Given the differences in admissions criteria among our three systems though, these students are probably generally better prepared for college success than the majority of our students, i.e. study skills, ability to communicate, calculate, and think critically. However, many of our students have more life experience than this group and the redirected students will have a potential benefit that they might not otherwise have had.

Finding the mythical middle ground between the accelerated and struggling student is always a reality in the classroom. That divide may be exacerbated a bit by this redirect proposal. The real issue is that many of our more traditional community college students will probably note even make it into college because of fees and full classes.

Mon 3/22/2004 11:30 AM, jgerhold@bakersfieldcollege.edu (John Gerhold)

I expect there will be a great deal of confusion over how fees will be waived/covered. Our institution drops students for non-payment of fees after 10 days. This may cause enrollment problems.

Our counseling staff is already over-worked. I don't know how we can promise counseling (without a lengthy wait for an appointment) since we can't cover it very well now for the population we have.

Mon 3/22/2004 11:27 AM, rmatthews@miracosta.edu (Ric Matthews)

1. Having enough sections available sine Fall planning is concluding ahead of firm direction as to the numbers anticipated to arrive.
2. Blending with other community college students who might not be as well prepared.
3. Attitude associated with being sent away by the UC/CSU which was first choice
4. Planning for how many classes this group might want/need/be expected to finish

Mon 3/22/2004 11:22 AM, kbray@sierracollege.edu (Kevin Bray)

I think the bigger changes will be outside the classroom, not in. These will be more demanding customers, with more sense of entitlement. Our services will have to come to terms with that.

Mon 3/22/2004 11:14 AM, Reisnec@arc.losrios.edu (Carolyn Reisner)

The biggest issue is that these students will be notified of being redirected after our deadline of April 1 to get priority registration at American River College. These students will then be trying to enroll in classes that are already full. This is especially true with our transfer level math and English courses. Are we going to get additional funding to offer more courses? For counselors to work with these students?

Mon 3/22/2004 11:12 AM, lewisrp@lacitycollege.edu (Richard Lewis)

Where will the money the UC and CSU systems receive for each unit taken by a "redirected" student be distributed? Will the Community College system faculty compare favorably with University faculty in matters of state support, funding etc? Will Community College students have to wait for classes they need to make room for the University students? Will faculty at Community Colleges be paid on the same scale as their University counterparts? Will the Community Colleges be subsidized at the same rate as Universities? What steps will be taken to ensure that traditional Community College students are not adversely impacted by the "redirected" student. What steps will be taken to ensure that redirected students meet the standards of discipline and institutional cohesiveness expected in a Community College learning environment and campus-wide.

Mon 3/22/2004 11:01 AM, SnellK@flc.losrios.edu (Ken Snell)

As a instructor I am concerned that these redirects get priority registration and fees waived. Will they push native CCC students out of classes needed for graduation, degrees and certificates? How will our native students who pay fees feel about this inequity? How will the redirects feel about being redirected to the community college? How are they notified about the redirection? I see a number of potential problems with this program.

Mon 3/8/2004 1:25 PM, wellsfn@CRC.losrios.edu (Norval Wellsfry)

As more CSU and UC students get redirected to community colleges, I anticipate three impacts:

* First: The obvious, there will be more students. Given the budget strain many colleges are currently feeling, this could exacerbate an already difficult situation as more students try to get into few classes.

* Second: There may be a shift in the program participation rates. There will be more students trying to get into traditional transfer and general education courses. Given the budget strain noted above, colleges may feel a pressure to shift resources into transfer programs and out of traditional occupational programs or developmental programs, especially smaller and more expensive programs.

* Third: The one most specific to our classrooms, we may see a shift in the "preparation distribution" of our students. Traditionally, we have not attracted the most academically prepared students. As more UC/CSU eligible students enter our classrooms, we may see a more pronounced bi-model distribution with larger proportions of better prepared students. This may cause a problem for the less prepared students who may perceive less attention to their unique needs. It may also be more difficult for instructors to adapt their classes to an increasing dichotomy in the preparation level of students.

The very difficult context of all of these impacts is on the traditional community college students. Those students who have relied on us as "second chance" institutions or who use us to retrain for new skills in an evolving economy could find that the services and programs that they rely on are not available. Additionally, if colleges shift their instructor mix too dramatically, we could find that there could be some future employment disruption if those students return to the UC/CSU environment as funding in that sector improves in the future. As college enrollments return to traditional distribution patterns, there may be more need for instructors who specialize in remedial or occupational programs and less need for instructors in the traditional general education or transfer programs.

Sun 3/7/2004 9:44 PM, dchowenhill@gw5mail.clpccd.cc.ca.us (Dennis Chowenhill)

I will dare to say the obvious:

The movement to refer CSU and UC accepted students to the community colleges threatens mission drift for the CCs.

For more than twenty-five years I have proudly worked in what we used to refer to as the last democratic institution, the community college. The primary excitement has resided in our service to those students who have previously been deemed not college "viable." We have, of course, over many decades, demonstrated that such students are indeed college viable, given the right learning atmospheres.

Unquestionably we are well prepared to greet the deferred CSU and UC students, since we have always served students at that level. But I fear that when the budget is tight, and we start operating under triage measures, the students that we will lose will be the "non-college viable" students whom we have learned so well to serve. Already this population of students is being threatened, with rising tuition, exorbitant textbook prices, the cost of living, and the shortsighted planning of statewide business and industry employers who seem content to hire workers at the lowest possible level.

All these pressures encourage us to turn our backs on the students most
in need.

Sun 3/7/2004 12:37 PM, LPalumbo@Cerritos.edu (Linda Palumbo)

In spite of IGETC, transfer institutions bewilder students with a variety of articulation agreements. How do we make sure students know what they are doing?

How do community college faculty argue for more transfer-level classes, particularly in pre-major courses, which tend to have lower enrollment and thus to be more expensive? At Cerritos College, for example, any class needs at least twenty students enrolled by the first day or it will be cancelled; plus administrators prefer more sections of money-makers in the general ed areas (e.g., classes that fill at sixty). If we are getting more university-ready students, shouldn't we have more small sophomore-level classes as well as more large general ed classes?

Fri 3/5/2004 6:02 PM, goodmuse@earthlink.net (David Goodman)

My students will probably ask: "Why should I bother trying to transfer to a UC or CSU campus when I'll simply end up back here." So much for SMC having the highest 'transfer success rate' in the CCC system.

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